Skjoldplayers.com Forum Index Skjoldplayers.com
Skjold Players
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Buzz Feiten?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Skjoldplayers.com Forum Index -> Ask Pete
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
wujuu



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:22 am    Post subject: Buzz Feiten? Reply with quote

To Pete or anyone else that wants to chime in:

I'm always curious why guitar/bass luthiers/manufacturers continue to make parallel fret basses or basses without a compensated nut, buzz feiten, etc. If these new technologies are proven to make such a difference in the intonation and overall uniformity of sound, why aren't they more widely embraced? It seems an obvious path for all builders to take. Has it been your experience that it doesn't *really* make much of a difference? Especially since you've had a chance to A/B with Juneau's fanned 6. Just wondering since the rest of the features on your basses seem to be on the cutting-edge. Or is your nut in fact compensated and not mentioned anywhere(maybe I missed it)? Or is it that having a zero fret renders any compensated nut technology useless?

Thanks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
G



Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 165
Location: MI

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good questions! I'm really interested in Pete's reply as well...
_________________
Skjold player in training.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SmallEQ



Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few things to consider.
1. You can't do a compensated nut with a bass that uses a zero fret. I think Buzz Feiten must work differently, because a zero fret will act as the end point no matter how the nut is cut.
2. Even the engineers at Ernie Ball will tell you that on a bass the real effect of the compensated nut is minimal. They developed it mainly for guitar, but the Bongo was the next new instrument they were developing so they debuted it then.
3. Nobody likes to pay money to license things, especially if you don't perceive it to be a necessity. Years of people playing in tune (or at least close enough) without such tools seems to prove that.

Personally, most people who like the system, like it because their favorite instrument happens to use it. I bet if you asked your average MTD user if he would be upset if you took away his Buzz Feiten setup, he wouldn't shed too many tears.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wujuu



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

doop dee doo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pete Skjold
Site Admin


Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a great topic and question .

It is known that the Feiten system uses a compansated nut . This can also be done with how you set up the intonation , which is actually how that system works . The nut allows you to just tune without any specific settings to the open tuning or the intonation . They now have tuners that will give you the compansated tunings required to achieve the desired results .

Mike Tobias uses this system on ALL his basses including his basses with a zero fret . I also use a compansated intonation , which allows the bass to play intune more evenly .

Here is something to think about , though . When you play a note on a bass string , the weight of the strings movement will actually make it play sharp for just a second . This is much more noticeable on the B-string . Try playing it kinda hard through a tuner , you will see that it reads sharp for just a second until all the overtones even out . So depending on how long you hold the note or how hard or how short you hold the note , you may be playing just slightly out of tune most of the time .

This is actually what makes the electric bass so hard to sample and make it believable .

Here is another way to listen to it . Take a harp that is plucked and a piano which is struck . The two are quite different sounding in the overall attack .

Anyway , very good question and I am always trying to stay on the cutting edge without getting caught up in some of the hype of the month .

Peace ,

Pete
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
SmallEQ



Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just don't understand what a compensated nut would do when you have a zero fret. The Zero fret is the end point with regards to intonation and the saddles are the other endpoint. Unless I am missing something, the nut could be cut in the shape of an elephant and it wouldn't make any difference in intonation with a zero fret.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pete Skjold
Site Admin


Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah you are right , the zero fret becomes a fixed point and the rest is done at the saddle . What the Feiten system allows is the ability to not have to compansate the tuning at the 12th fret or the tuning of the string . You can use the Feiten system on a regular bass , it is just compansated tuning and intonation which allows the strings to sound more in tune over the whole range of the bass . Fretted instruments will never play 100% in tune . The concept has been around for centuries ( almost as long as fretted instrumets ).

Check out the Peterson strobe tuner , it offers the tuning calibrations based on the feiten system .

The fanned fret or multi scale application was another concepts that has been around long before it was patanted ( look at a harp or piano ) and it helps the strings to be more percisely tuned for the range of the string.

Paul , if you are still not seeing it I can show you the concept at the shop Smile
Pete
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
SmallEQ



Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete Skjold wrote:

Paul , if you are still not seeing it I can show you the concept at the shop Smile
Pete


Wait, you mean you can tune a bass? These things should come with manuals or somthing.
Razz
I get the concept, I was under the impression that even with a zero fret there was a compensated nut, which of course makes no sense.

I know all about the Strobostomp, its the best piece of gear I own! Laughing Razz


(well other than that walnut covered thing I have)


Last edited by SmallEQ on Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pete Skjold
Site Admin


Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right , with a zero fret the nut is not involved . You could have stopped me eighty lines ago Paul :wink

: Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
SmallEQ



Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

enough with your double speak witch doctor!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vic



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 257

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete Skjold wrote:
Fretted instruments will never play 100% in tune . The concept has been around for centuries ( almost as long as fretted instrumets ).
...and key'd instruments as well. It's an inherent flaw in the TTET system (Twelve Tone Even Temperment). A perfect example is get a bass perfectly in tune with opens and octaves, and then play a 10th on the G string against the open D. It'll be sharp every time, and there's nothing you or anyone can do about it short of a freaky fretting system... Warwick tried this, and IMHO, that bass would be unplayable. Even then, it wasn't perfect.

All the more reason to play fretless! Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RJMiller



Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 4
Location: Minnesota

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:58 am    Post subject: Historic Tunings (Temperaments) Reply with quote

Perhaps of interest to no one, but.....

Various tunings were in use before the equal temperament tuning that is used for keyed instruments now. I have a book by a fellow named Owen Jorgensen titled Tuning the Historical Temperaments by Ear - A Manual of Eighty-Nine Methods for Tuning Fifty-One Scales on the Harpsichord, Piano and Other Keyboard Instruments.

Yes, a fretless could be played "in tune", but, since we are used to equal temperament, would it then sound "out of tune"?

RJM
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom Bowlus



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 260
Location: Fremont, Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SmallEQ wrote:
Wait, you mean you can tune a bass?


Yes, but you can't tune a fish.

_________________
Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Vic



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 257

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:06 am    Post subject: Re: Historic Tunings (Temperaments) Reply with quote

RJMiller wrote:
Yes, a fretless could be played "in tune", but, since we are used to equal temperament, would it then sound "out of tune"?
I don't think so. Since you'd always be able to play "in tune", I'd think other TTETS instruments might dance around you a little, but you'd always sound central on the note. The times in the past I did a lot of fretless playing, I always compensated automatically since that's what my ears told me was in tune, and it sounded fine with pianos and guitars as I recall.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Skjoldplayers.com Forum Index -> Ask Pete All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group